Category: Geeks r Us
Some of this came from my thread on PDAs and notetakers, so I apologise if you have already read it. But I wanted to give the linux users here a chance to share their experience and advice.
I have always avoided Linux, which is odd, since it's based on Unix, which is older than DOS! But it seemed like a strange system to me, with no drive letters. Plus, I would have to learn all new commands, cancelling out what I already know from DOS. But if I had to choose between that and a touchscreen operating system, I think I would choose Linux. Then, I remembered that this is also the basis for Android! So could I somehow get into the terminal with my Nexus 7 and operated it that way? Is there a shell with menus, but a text user interface that can be used with Linux? If none of this is possible with Android, then do other small nontouch devices exist which use this system?
This link contains information about Linux from the perspective of a blind user, but I don't know if it's up-to-date or not.
http://leb.net/blinux/
In any case, it was suggested to me that I use Ubuntu. Has anyone here used this flavour of the operating system, or even a different version? Why is Ubuntu the best for the blind? How easy is Linux to learn, and how accessible are the programs for it to do basic things like Wordprocessing, listening to mp3/wav/wma files, and backing up files to a compact flash card or external flash drive? Can it handle more complicated ones, like surfing the internet on complex pages, like Facebook and Youtube, converting pdfs to rtfs, recording voice files, making simple videos, Skyping, and ocr of printed materials and scanned pdfs? I know that ESpeak was originally designed for Linux. Does this mean that I can also read and write in Greek? I do so daily with Windows, so this would be wonderful! I have heard that its screen reader has similar keystrokes to NVDA, which is also good, as that's what I use on Windows.
Finally, what about bugs. Is it easy to restart the system or to get help if something goes wrong? what major problems, if any, have you experienced with this operating system? Thanks for any help given.
I use a distribution of GNU/Linux called Trisquel, which is based on Ubuntu, but with non-free code removed. Some other distributions with accessibility optimizations are Debian, Sonar and Vinux. Trisquel includes a version of the GNOME desktop, and the Orca screen reader. There is accessibility for Libreoffice (a drop-in replacement for MS Office), several audio/video media players, the GNOME terminal (think "commandline box" in Win), Firefox, Thunderbird, a multi-protocol messenger called Pidgin, the default file manager (think Win Explorer; lets you cut/copy/paste/delete, move, etc, files). The default GNOME text editor called Gedit, and many more apps. Other desktop environments (GNOME is most familiar), have some accessibility; they include XFCE and LXDE.One can do many things in a modern GNU/Linux distribution, without ever learning or using command lines, directly. Commands you learned in older UNIX systems will most-likely work as you remember, unless you're doing advanced things with shell scripting. You may be unacustomed to directory structure layout. Generally, you refer to drives by device designation, e. g. /dev/sda is the entire first primary drive, while partitions are fererred as /dev/sda1, /dev/sda2, etc... A USB drive would likely become the second or third drive, e. g. /dev/sdb or /dev/sdc. When a drive or partition is mounted, a mount point is typically used, e. g. /home for the area containing users' files, or /media/sanzaclip+ for my portable media player.
Thank you so much! This is extremely helpful and I will save it for future research. As a DOS enthusiast, I don't mind the commandline at all. It's just that this is extremely different from what I'm used to seeing. That said, a shell with a text user interface would be ideal. That way, I could use menus and keystrokes but not deel with graphics. I'm not sure if such a thing exists for Linux. I've been having problems with Windows 7, relating to sound, things not reading properly etc. I was told that these are solvable. But in general, I don't like or need the frills of a gui, especially when they just get in the way and make things needlessly complicated. This is especially true of the touch interface. I like to enter a simple command or go through a clean menu to get things done, not tap, swipe, flick and perform some sacred ritual just to change the rate of speech or delete a character!
If you like to use non-gui apps that have menus, consider alpine for mail and usenet, elinks for web browsing, mc (short for midnight commander) for file management. I think there's a console app called finch for instant messaging and irc. VLC media player has a non-x option. Text editors like pico, nano and vim are available in all GNU/Linux flavors. Debian and Arch Linux can easily be setup to be console-only, if that is your preference. In either case, you'd have the speakup screen review for the text console. Also, there's a distribution called Knoppix Adrianne edition, that has the text console and s specially-written speech-and-keyboard interface.
Oh wow! I like the sound of that! So it's designed for the blind? I wonder how easy that is to set up. I have heard of Speakup and Orca. Does one work with the tui and another with the gui or are they interchangeable?
Oh wow! So Noppix can be run straight off a cd! I can try it without even having to install it! I like this! But do I have to tell my computer to boot from the cd, and if so, how is that done without going into the bios? And ADRIANE has built-in ocr too? I must try this!
Okay. Now I'm a bit confused here. Is ADRIANE to be used with Noppix, which is a different flavour of Linux, or is it a complete package that runs ontop of another form of the operating system? Also, they mention phones. Can this be run from a handheld pc or palmtop? If not, then what phones can be used with it? If I'm limited to one of these, then I need to check and see if my data plan is unlimited. If I can use another device, then can I also use wifi?
http://knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html
This makes things much easier. *smile*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoppix
Opa! I can boot from a floppy! That way, I can test it out and not have to worry about booting from cd. The hardware requirements are also extremely low. So much so that I can get away with using one of my older machines. In any case, it seems that I don't have to use a phone. I can now also look for some mainstream palmtops, since I have some ram and other requirements! I think I'll start my Linux journey with Adriane, since it seems the most accessible and everything I need is already built-in.
I found this, but am not sure how current it is, since it mentions 2009. Also, would it be possible for me to do this? I thought you have to change the book through bios or some other inaccessible means. I might just have someone sighted do the install to the flash drive, but that still doesn't help me as far as telling my computer to boot from it. Also, must the drive be plugged in all the time to work or will the computer retain the system in memory for as long as the current session lasts? Can I install and run from a compact flash card?
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/installing-knoppix-60-to-a-usb-flash-drive/#more-1306
I found the latest version of Knoppix, 7.2.0, already installed on disk.
http://on-disk.com/product_info.php/products_id/1560
But I'm not sure if this one actually contains the audio desktop. It mentions LXDE and GNOME, which I know are desktops. But it also says "New version of the elinks text web browser, Templates for mail configuration with mutt and keyboard mailing program KARL in ADRIANE Audio-Desktop". The latest version which specifically says that it contains ADRIANE. is 7.0.4. "ADRIANE: Version 1.4 of the audio desktop for blind computer users with improved support for somd braille devices."
So does this mean that their rendering of 7.2.0 doesn't have it or did they just not mention it?
While looking for a tutorial/demonstration of Knoppix, I came across something called Emacspeak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacspeak
They say it's a desktop, that's connected with a text editor called Emacs. But it's not like a regular screen reader in that it uses audio and is directly connected with this program. Has anyone used this, and if so, what is it like and on what version of Linux have you used it? How does it compare to other screen readers and desktops? I know nothing about any of this, so I'm sorry if my questions seem stupid.
I know this is a Linux board but what is not reading in windows7 for you Tiff and what screen reader are you using?
*smile* No problem. I actually wrote a full explanation of my issues here.
https://www.zonebbs.com/boards.php?t=28752
I'm using Windows 7 with NVDA, on an HP Elitebook 4520P, with Firefox and Comet Bird as my browsers. Many times, I'll use tab and shift tab to get through links, and it will just say "unknown". When I try to hit f to get to various forms or check boxes, it just says "f". At other times, when I switch programs/windows, it will say "task switching" or "task switching list unavailable" and nothing else, even when I hit nvda-t. I have other minor complaints about 7 that I wrote there as well.
I think all the Knoppix live media contain the adriane desktop; you can type the command adriane at the boot prompt, but must be soon, else the full graphic sesion starts, with the LXDE desktop. Orca can work with LXDE, but not fully, and what does work, you have to piece it together. Speakup and Orca are separate thins-- one for the text console, and the other for the gui. That said, you can run a terminal in a gui session. Elinks is a text-mode browser with some javascript capability, depending on how it was compiled. Mutt is an email agent for the text console. Alpine is another, and one that is far easier to use, in my experience; this is a personal preference thing, you may come to love mutt and hate alpine; LOL. Emacspeak is an audio environment, built entirely in emacs, which is not just an editor! Emacspeak works directly with other emacs code, making it self-voicing; it is *NOT* a screen scraper! Getting started with emacspeak is difficult; I suggest learning other tools, first, and, if you find them wanting, dive into emacspeak. On booting from live media: Get someone sighted to set your bios device boot order; this has to be done once. There may be, as there is on both my laptops, a boot device menu that comes up when a key is pressed during the power-on self-test. On my netbook, it's 'esc'. From there, I down-arrow, once, to get to the USB setting.
Thanks for the clarifications. I'll leave Emacspeak for later, if at all. Right now, I want to keep things simple, so that I can start exploring the operating system and its software. From what I'm hearing, it seems that I will do best with Adriane and Speakup, respectively, as the one is self-contained and the other is a console-based approach.
Adrianne is a self-contained little environment, though the shell is one of the things you can access. Speakup runs without Adrianne in the way; is a direct interface to the console. I'm not sure there are live images with speakup and anything more than the basic system, though. For instance, the debian net installer has speakup; you press 's', at boot, to get a talking session, but this system has only enough to allow installation. The Talking Arch medium has more utilities, and can serve as a repair tool, of sorts. The latest live Vinux Trisquel, Sonar, Fedora, Manjaro, etc live media boot into a gui session. Maybe you should start with Adriane; when your desires have out-grown her feature set, install something else. A Knoppix disk is also good to keep around, in case you need to repair something.
I'll just take your advice on this. I don't want to encounter any major problems this early on. One final question before I make my purchase. As a blind user, is it worth it for me to spend the extra dollar or two for the dvd or should I just get the cd? Thanks for all of your help. You might also like to know that Windows 7 and/or NVDA is up to its usual tricks. Speech/sound completely quit on me as I was writing, so that I had to reboot. How lovely!
It's worth noting that I never had this issue with XP. So I'm not sure if it's 7, NVDA, or even this laptop, which has touch buttons, instead of real ones, for volume, mute, etc.
Why not download the image(s) and burn to cd or wite to usb drive?
I don't have any cd burning software, as I almost never use cds, dvds, etc. But if I recall, I think there is an option in Windows (XP at least) to burn to cd. I have a usb drive, but that's where I store all my files. I'm not sure if I can write the os there as well. I have the storage capacity, but would it still work? If not, I could buy a fresh drive. But if this is an iso file, I have no idea how to work with those. Do I just copy or burn it and then execute it or is there something special that I need to do?
Hi,
Just thought I would solve all your problems here, right now, and on this board for you.
While installing NVDA on my Microsoft tablet, I got the same errors you did and speak of about the unknown errors. This is because NVDA or some bug in the screen reading software, not Windows 7.
I guarantee you if you use Jaws, you won't have any of these problems with 7 or 8.
You can't just copy the file onto a cd or thumb drive. There is, in XP's file manager, a burn option; this should work for the live cd iso files. For putting the iso onto a usb drive, get the dd tool; it runs in the command line. Note: this drive should not have anything else on it, but the written emage. Go and buy a 2 or 4 GB thumb drive!
hardyboy09, do you have $800 or so to give me? That's how much JFW costs, and even if it was $600, that's still far too much for a screen reader. Supernova is $300 or so, which is much better, but I could buy a computer at that cost.
Dave_H, both the cd and dvd are under $5, and I found one for $2 on Ebay. So it may make more sense to just get one of those. Then again, given my oh so good luck with cds skipping/not working and my intense dislike of dvds (though that's only for films) maybe I should just get the drive. *sigh* Still, for $2 or even $6, I'm not breaking the bank and I can still experiment.
I just found a demo of Adriane. It takes awhile for the demo part to begin, and it's not really that detailed. But they show both Adriane and Orca. I really like this! More importantly, it uses ESpeak, which means that it can handle Greek! I saw that Adriane has chat, e-mail, multimedia, and something called Notebook, which I am guessing is a wordprocessor. Orca, it seems, reads other things that are native to Knoppix, or that can be installed, including an office program.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3r-m7rOn8I
I just found a demo of Adriane. It takes awhile for the demo part to begin, and it's not really that detailed. But they show both Adriane and Orcha. I really like this! More importantly, it uses ESpeak, which means that it can handle Greek! I saw that Adriane has chat, e-mail, multimedia, and something called Notebook, which I am guessing is a wordprocessor. Orcha, it seems, reads other things that are native to Knoppix, or that can be installed, including an office program.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3r-m7rOn8I
Getting back to the installation, I have an 8gb Sandisk Cruzer Glide, that I'm guessing would be considered a stick. I have only used compact flash cards to save my files until a few months ago. I also have two 32gb Sandisk Cruzer Fit drives that I am guessing are considered thumb drives because they're absolutely tiny, meaning that if the machine is bumped, the pins in the drive won't bend and break, because it's almost flush with the laptop. Currently, about 16gb of one is filled with the files that I either use daily or want to always be accessible. I'm using the other to store files that I don't usually use, and it only has about 2gb left. Can I use the 8gb stick? I heard that the full dvd of Knoppix contains about 9gb of data, but that the cd is much smaller. From a blind perspective, would it be more advantageous for me to install from the dvd version, due to the extra programs, or are most of those unnecessary? There are about 3,000 of them, so I'm sure that some could come in handy. That said, the full list is also given, so I could probably download the individual ones that I want. Regardless, I forget whether or not there is an actual usb installer. If so, then I would naturally use that. Considering that I like the form factor of the Cruzer Fit, can I get a smaller one and use that? Must I format it as fat? I read something about this being the appropriate for a drive. How easy is it to use the dd tool? Apparently, there is a file that I need to edit in order to make Knoppix boot with Adriane, instead of the default desktop. It seemed fairly straight forward, but I'm not sure how I would access it if this is an image file.
At any rate, I have an HP Elitebook 2540p. If I remember correctly, it tries to boot from usb before going to the hard disk. If this is true, it would solve the issue of Knoppix starting before Windows. So I could use this as a test drive, and then, if I really like it, I could either just keep the drive in my machine or have Knoppix loaded onto it or another of my computers.
Here is a wonderful article, which seems very much up-to-date, as it was only written in January.
http://www.zdnet.com/hands-on-with-knoppix-linux-7-2-0-a-well-established-and-very-stable-linux-distribution-7000025571/
Apparently, there are three main varients. The cd, the dvd, and a bootable option that's meant to be used with a cd and a usb drive. That might be the easiest for me right now. The author used dd to try and create a bootable usb, but I got the sense that this wasn't exactly an easy task. I also noticed that there is something called the Adriane Release. From what I understand, Adriane comes with all versions of Knoppix. So does this mean that this one is specifically made to start in Adriane and not LXDE? I didn't really understand the part about installing to a hard drive. I think I'll have someone do that when I'm ready for it. It seems that, should I start with the wrong desktop, say LXDE, I can switch over to Adriane. I was going to ask how to start Orca, incase I needed to do that, but I thought that only works with Gnome.
Here is a huge list of Knoppix commands that can be entered at startup. This is what I needed.
"Boot options like "adriane" can easily be preset by changing '/mnt-system/boot/syslinux/syslinux.cfg' after having copied the CD to a bootable memorystick using "Knoppix => Install KNOPPIX to flash disk": Change the upper line
DEFAULT knoppix
to:
DEFAULT adriane
for automatically starting ADRIANE on boot. This is already default in all ADRIANE iso files."
I'm guessing that this is similar to editing autoexec.bat? Ebay has the latest version preinstalled on cd, dvd, and usb stick. If I get the stick, will those files be editable? Also, what did they mean by "ADRIANE iso files?" When I went to the main site, and to the page with the mirrors for download, all simply said ftp or http, and cd or dvd. I saw nothing about Adriane or the bootable files to use in conjunction with a stick. They do have a section strictly for Adriane files, but it looks like those simply make up the desktop and don't contain the core of Knoppix. As a sidenote, this machine has 4gb of ram. Could I comfortably run the os that way and free up either my cd rom drive or a usb port?
I'm making good progress with Knoppix. A Klango user not only has it, complete with the Adriane setup, but it's also 7.3, which just came out in March. He has offered to send it to me (remember that this is GNU software and can legally be copied and sent),. I just need to get a dvd and a thumb drive, unless I reformat my 32gb one, install Knoppix on it, and then add my documents, musi, etc. Otherwise, an 8gb drive should suffice, and I can just use my regular one for storing and using my files. The only problem that I can foresee is how to make one of my computers boot from either dvd r usb. I have several to choose from, so hopefully, one has the correct boot sequence. If not, then I will either nee to find an accessible way t do it from the bios or I will need to send one down to my friend in New Orleans, so he can take care of it. As it happen, I'm already sendingone down for repairs. So I can either have him delete XP from that hard drive and install Knoppix permenantly on it or just change the boot sequence.
I found a temporary sollution to the boot issue here.
http://h20565.www2.hp.com/portal/site/hpsc/template.PAGE/public/psi/mostViewedDisplay/?sp4ts.oid=4138624&spf_p.tpst=psiContentDisplay&spf_p.prp_psiContentDisplay=wsrp-navigationalState%3DdocId%253Demr_na-c00364979-39%257CdocLocale%253Den_US&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=com.vignette.cachetoken
"The default boot order settings for the computer are configured in the factory. The default boot order for HP notebook PCs is listed below.
1.
Floppy disk drive
2.
Optical drive (DVD, CD-ROM)
3.
Hard drive
4.
USB device
5.
Network adapter"
Ideally, I would like to boot from the usb drive. But at least I can use the cd, and if I get the right image, then I can boot from the cd and switch to the usb, which will work much quicker. Like I said, it's not perfect, but at least I can play around with this system, and if I really like it, I can have it installed on my other machine.
I may have just found a use for my Nexus 7! It looks complicated to me, but apparently, I can install Knoppix on it, even though it's not a regular X86 processor!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1459153
I also found this. It doesn't specifically mention Knoppix, but I'll do some investigating and see if it could work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxOnAndroid
If I can use either a usb keyboard, or even a bluetooth one, that would certainly solve my issue of a notetaker. I would still prefer something with a built-in keyboard, but this is definitely a viable option if nothing can be found. For now, though, I'm going to focus on getting it on a regular computer.
May I suggest, given your DOS background, that you use Arch Linux? Or Gentoo, for that matter. But at the beginning stages, I would advise you to be careful when you play with Arch, or Gentoo. For either distro, you can find Arch at http://talkingarch.tk and Gentoo at http://gentoo.org If you decide to go the Gentoo way, be ready to do a lot of reading and following instructions. Also, the Gentoo CD has a speakup command line parameter, or option, that you must pass in. If you have keyboard speakers, you will hear a double beep. At this point, you type gentoo speakup.synth=soft
On the Arch CD, speakup is already good to go. But, when you get to the pacstrap step, you need to add espeakup to the line. But, if you follow the tutorial, you should be good to go.
I will take that into consideration. Thanks for the advice. *smile* But for now, I'll be trying out Knoppix. It has several desktops, and I can also use it with the commandline. But I am curious. These are all technically Unix-like systems. How do they differ from Unix and from each other in major ways? For instance, you just recommend Arch and Gentoo, and I have chosen Knoppix. What are the advantages of the other two, and if they operate off of the same base, would not their commandlines be similar, as with various versions of DOS (MS, DR, FreeDOS, etc.)
The Linux distrobutions differ from Unix in that they are open source and the kernels are different. Commands that work in one distrobution carry over to another, except for a few minor cases. As for Arch vs Gentoo, Arch is is a distro that you build up from a basic base install. You install, in Linux terms, precompiled binaries, packages of software that are premade and optimized for your platform. They also give you the Arch Build System, where you can build packages. Gentoo, on a similar, yet different scope, is another distrobution in which you build from a base. But they compile source code, and, as far as I know, have very few binary packages. Also, Gentoo gives you complete control of optimizing packages, and making various modifications to the compiler, the software that builds a package.
Thanks for the explanation. Right now, I want to keep things as simple as possible, since I'm very new to all of this. I want a system that will get me up and running.
Do you plan to scrap your Windows system? If not, Debian has a nice installeo to set up a dual boot. And, as a bonus, Debian is the base distrobution of Knopix.
If you go the Gentoo route, be ready for a lot of source compilation, as that is how they optimize their stuff for your computer.
No thanks. I want something easy to use and install. Even if I do learn the Linux commandline, which I intend on doing, I want something that works out of the box for now. The 7.3 file was uploaded, and hopefully, Lee was e-mailed. I'm going to message my friend from Klango and see if he can send me the link as well. I asked him to just send it to Lee, since he has the computers. But now that I know the Mac can also boot off of a dvd, all I need to do is to buy a blank dvdrw, install Knoppix on it, and I'll have a usable machine until my others either get back here or are sold and replaced. I could also use it on my Dell Latitude, as it meets the requirements. But I'm fairly certain the drive in there is a cd and not a dvd, and this particular installation is dvd. Then again, I could just download the Adriane cd from 7.2 and use that. But I would need to get a cdrw! *smile* I don't use either format, so don't own them.
After talking with at least two users of Linux (one a very serious user of Knoppix), I have decided to make the switch. Apparently, it can handle all of my daily tasks and more! The only ones that I must investigate are simple audio and video recording. Other than that, I'm set. It can even handle Greek, both reading and input! Best of all, I can either dual boot a system (DOS) or use a virtual machine (XP), so that my actual computer is safe from hackers and I can still use the programs that I need or play around with a system, as the case may be.
I'm starting off with Adriane, as it's fairly simple and has almost everything built-in. Then, I intend on trying Gnome with Orca. Finally, I will attempt to learn the commandline. Any suggestions, tips, or tricks would be appreciated, and yes, I will take these seriously, because I want to learn and to make the best of my experience. Thanks.
There is one other program that I forgot. Skype. Is there a Linux version, and is it accessible?
There is a Linux version, but it is not accessible. Well, it's half-assed accessible, but still. But, fear not, for there is a plugin for Pidgin which integrates with Skype. The application is called Skype4pidgin, and it may be in the repositories, and it may not; but, it is easy to get a hold of.
Beautiful! *smile* The more I read about Linux, the more I like it. Every time I've asked about something, I heard "it can do that", or "it's included", or "it can be downloaded easi.
When you go to the terminal phase of your Linux learning experience, he are a few important ones:
cd: change directory
mv: move a file or folder
cp: copy a file or folder
rm: delete a file or folder, but bewarned, it won't ask you about your actions
pwd: print working directory, handy if you want to know where you are
poweroff: turn off the system
ifconfig: find information about your network interfaces; the equivellent in DOS is ipconfig
dig: get DNS information about a site; similar to nslookup in DOS
ls: lists files and folders in a directory; dir in MS DOS
killall <processname>: kills the specified process, handy if an application hangs
nano: a text editor
That's about all I can think of now.
You'll find that Linux is the playground for the geek and the user: it does what you want, when you want it done.
Thanks! I'll save those commands right now. The only thing, and it's a silly one, that has kept me away from Linux all of these years, is that I thought it was necessary for me to use the commandline, and it seemed somehow foreign to me. I'm used to using drive letters and really couldn't imagine how I would function without them. But now, I'm ready to learn. My concern over this was not a true mental block or dislike, as ith touchscreens, but rather, confusion and worry. But now that I know I can start off with a menu system, I can learn the commandline, while still using the other shells etc. and keeping Linux as my primary operating system. I thought that I once saw a list of Linux commands and their DOS equivalents. I'll see if I can find it, or at least, a more comprehensive list, just so that can learn and practise. The Mac has a terminal, so I'm sure I could use some of them there.
You forgot about OpenSuSE.
If I remember correctly, that's a different version. I may try it someday, when I'm more familiar with Linux in general. But right now, this is all very new to me, so I think it's best that I stick with Knoppix and learn the basics. Besides, in this thread, I read that the commands and such are almost the same among the different versions of Linux. That's one thing which really confuses me. Why do all of these different distributions exist? If I use Gnome on Knoppix, how is it different from using it in OpenSuSE, or does that come with its own programs and whatnot? Forgive my ignorance.
At any rate, I saved the user's manual for Orca, and separated it into three files; Orca (the main tutorial), Commands, and Preferences. The links to the actual pages can be found here, and they exist in various sections.
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/preferences.html.en
https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/commands.html.en
This should be enough to get me started, and most of it doesn't look that difficult.
Hi Tiffanitsa,
Using Gnome or any other accessible desktop environment in OpenSuSE is the same. The only thing that changes is the package manager used for each distro.
Debian, Ubuntu, etc all use apt-get.
RHEL, CentOS, etc use RPM or YUM to update.
Arch, Sonar Linux, etc use Pacman to update.
OpenSuSE etc use Zypper.
The accessible desktop environments I'm aware of are:
Gnome 3x, GDM's accessibility is hit or miss.
Unity with LightDM and LightDM-Unity Greeter
XFCE, LXDE, Mate.
All are accessible to a greater or lesser extent.
I hope this answers some of your questions.
Yes, thank you. At least, if Gnome doesn't work, I can try one of the others that you mentioned. Thankfully, Knoppix can now update automatically, so whenever a new release comes out, I don't have to find it, download it, install it, etc. on my own. It's probably not difficult, but this is a nice feature.
Updating Linux in generally is a slick process: pure and simple, easy with no headaches. Beware of OpenSuse, it's a little fickle with some hardware.
I decided to do a search for blind Linux accessibility. I found many interesting links. Some were outdated enough that I just ignored them (most things from before 2012 I avoid, since much seems to be happening in the Linux world lately.) This one was actually written earlier this month, and gave me pause for thought. It discusses the problems with Gnome 3, and talks about a desktop called Mate.
http://stormdragon.us/
Has anyone used Gnome 2 and 3? If so, what are the differences? I read that Adriane has a graphical option, which immediately starts Gnome, and either switches to Orca or works in conjunction with it. I'm going to try it, just to see what I personally think of it. But if 3 proves to be truly inaccessible, I wish to try 2 and Mate. How do I do this accessibly? That is, install them and start Orca? For now, I'm not too concerned. Adriane is 100% accessible and can do most of what I need. I'm just looking into the future.
Mate is a bit kludgy with Orca at the present. Gnome 3 is more of a mac like interface, with all sorts of search and cool features. Gnome 2 is more menu-driven.
Considering my experiences with the Mac, it sounds like I would be far better off with Gnome 2. Ideally, I would like a tui (text user interface) shell, with text menus, rather than graphics etc. The only one that I know of for Linux is Adriane, but you can't use outside applications with it, to my knowledge. Still, even though Gnome is a gui shell, it sounds like 2 is fairly decent. But I'll try 3. It's better for me to learn firsthand. I might even like it!
How would you know there were no graphics? Any of the access methods used by systems like the Mac or Gnome are, for you, no different than a sequence of vertical and horizontal text menus, since all the objects are represented in text to you.
This gets sillier the further we go.
Badly done UIs are badly done UIs be they text, graphical or audio or beads.
And all interfaces require some sort of layer for us, which turns the interface into something we can use.
I never worked on the DOS readers, not anything other than a user, but even in that text-only environment, I was constantly fiddling with smart screens and other settings, as well as writing macros to identify objects, such as they were, on the screen properly.
All this anti-graphics is all in your imagination, and your pseudoscience competes with the six-day-creationist apologists' understanding of biology ... for being able to really sound smart and at the same time be wildly wrong!
There are lots of text environments we can't use. BIOS, machine coded systems in industry, Amiga, Commodore, a ton of systems that evolved which had no access. Because for the most basic of text systems you had o have somebody come along and write a screen reader. And since most text systems are not object-oriented (self-aware), you would never know if you were in a menu, an area where you could type, or what.
You're noodling around with your imagining, and perhaps it's time to get off the Tilt-A-World. I know you'll come back with some website which has a lot of DOS / text-based-system apologetic usually with enough truth baked in to make it seem credible, but often laggardly in a real understanding of how this sort of thing really develops.
The difference between you favorite text-based mail client and Evolution is that with Evolution you will see with Orca what control you're in, meaning what you can actually do. On a command line, you wouldn't know the difference between
OK
written in a text editor on a blank line, and a button labeled OK. Not unless someone came along before you and wrote some fancy footwork in macros to watch for colors changes and ansi graphics changes.
That's right: even on the command line, everything is color separated and surrounded by ANSI or Unicode graphic characters. Otherwise, anyone looking at it would not be able to make heads or tails of it either.
Yes, but some programs really are just text menus, or give options like y/n, rather than buttons, unlabeled graphics, etc. I'm not saying that all are accessible, but there is still a difference. Having said that, I've heard of ansi, of course, in ansi.sys and in ansi characters when saving txt files. But I had no idea that the commandline used graphics and colours! I'm also getting a bit confused about the way that text is written to the screen. If I remember correctly, there are two ways to do it. In the first, it's written directly, and in the second, it's drawn. Is that right?
As for the bios, don't even get me started! Why on Earth no one has created an updated version of the Speaqualizer is beyond me, and anyone who has ever had to change the boot order of their machine, I am sure, will agree with me.
http://www.abledata.com/abledata.cfm?pageid=19327&ksectionid=0&top=11181&productid=94031&trail=0&discontinued=0
Now about macros. Is that what they mean by things like set files for VocalEyes and ASAP? You would create one to make a program more accessible? I've dealt with macros, but only on a very limited basis, in the Braille Lite. I could create a key combination that would open a given program or file. In that respect, they seem similar to batch files. A wonderful Windows program that can do this, and much more, is Auto Hotkey.
You'd almost have to get a macro set up for the Braille Lite, because the key combos were cryptic. But, we digress. Two good mail clients, for Linux, are Mutt, a CLI, and Thunderbird, a GUI. Yes, there is Evolution, but it hasn't evolved, pardon the pun, in the realm of accessibility.
I didn't find the Braille Lite's hotkeys to be cryptic at all.
Anyway, normally, I just use GMail. I haven't used a client in many years. But I do wish to download one or both of my accounts and get the messages off the server. The thing is that each is over 4gb. Thunderbird for windows couldn't handle it. Can it do so in Linux, or no, since it's a 32bit operating system?
To say Linux is a thirty-two bit operating is a fallacy: there are sixty-four bit versions. As for four gigs, I don't know. In theory, it should contain as much as your discs can stand, but it looks like that is not the case in practice.
It should, but I read that this is a 32bit issue. My Windows 7 setup was 64bit, but I read that trying to change the file size of the inbox folders would require a lot of work on the part of the developers.
It may be the Windows filesystem. I don't know. In Linux, you should probably devote a little time to learn about file systems, their uses, advantages, disadvantages, and so on.
Forgive the stupid question. But what do you mean about file systems? Obviously, I know about different types of files, (zip/rtf/mp3/exe, for example), But I'm not sure what you mean here.
A file system refers to the way your computer will organize and maintain files. In Linux, the common file system is ext4, in Windows, I think the two common ones are NTFS and FAT32.
Ah okay. Now we're on the same page! *smile*
I got my computer back over the weekend, and immediately started playing with Knoppix and Adriane. I knew that the latter was supposed to be basic, but I was both surprised and disappointed at how rudimentary I found it. Here is a quick overview.
Help: There is virtually no help file available, other than the most basic commands, like the fact that capslock is a modifier key, and how to move by character (word
is not listed), and sentence, plus how to select, copy, and paste. Â There is no tutorial explaining the various programs, nor how to set up a wireless connection.
Voice: There is no way to change this, except through configuration files, which for someone completely new to Linux, look like a foreign language. Â I'm sure that, if I looked at it, some of it would make sense, but this is ridiculous, even for a text-based system. Â Both
VocalEyes and ASAP have easy to access menus where basic things like voice, rate, pitch, volume, etc. can be accessed. Â And a tui means that clean menus can be created.
Media player (not its actual name): Again, there are no controls whatsoever, other than start, stop, and moving backward and forward in a file. Â There is no way to set the volume, or to play all of the files in a given directory.
Notebook: Files can be saved, but I'm not sure of their location. There is also no way to specify the format in which to save, nor can I open files from other directories or drives from within Notebook. Having said that, there is an option, which I did not try, to use Libreoffice in graphical mode. I am assuming that this starts Orca, but it's not a full session, as there is also an option for that, which I will discuss later.
File Manager: This lets me see all the files on the various drives, which is good, but does not offer any way to quickly copy entire directories from the thumb drive to the hard drive. Â I have 16gb of files. I am not going to import each one over with its associated program (notebook for text files, Media Player for mp3s)? Â There seems to be no way to do a select all. Â So I manually selected each subdirectory in a random directory (called computer), just to see if I could copy them over. Â I created a computer subdirectory in home, and when I hit alt-v to paste in the subdirectories and files, it deleted the one that I had just created. Â Also, it asked me if I wanted to delete, and then did so automatically, without letting me choose. Â Thankfully, I didn't need it, because I also saw no equivalent of a recycle bin. I was, however, able to open my documents with Notebook and to play my music with the media player, all through File Manager.
Internet: At first, I couldn't connect, but after some experimentation, I discovered my problem. There were two options, "Intel Corporation Centrino Advanced N6200" and "Intel Corporation 82566LM Gigabit Network connection". Â Of course, the former worked, since the latter was for ethernet. At any rate, as usual, there were no real help files in Adriane. Â I couldn't access them in the browser itself, even though I saw something that said manual. Â I hit enter on it and either nothing happened or it kept taking me back to the beginning of the menu. Â I heard that Adriane uses ELynx, so went online with my Windows machine and found the Lynx commands (I couldn't specifically find a file for ELynx). Â They didn't work. Â Either the documentation is out of date or they arranged things differently in this version. Â I hit o for options, and then tried k for keyboard, but it didn't exist. Â I managed to get to The Zone, but while I could read the links, it wouldn't read or let me enter the forms for username and password.
Then, I decided to play with Gnome and Orca, via the full session option in the graphical menu. I know that Gnome 3 isn't as accessible as Gnome 2, but there is definitely something wrong here. At first, it showed me that I needed to connect to the internet. This is before I had done so with Adriane. I have two networks that I can use. Mine, and the family's. Mine was just set up yesterday, and Orca would not read, or Gnome didn't see the family one. Once I had connected with Adriane, when I started Gnome and Orca, it said "notifica..." and then the speech stopped completely. I tried this several times. I then loaded the Knoppix dvd and was able to start that way, and then could do so from the hard drive, once I rebooted. But all it said was "Orca frame" and when I tried arrowing and tabbing around the desktop, absolutely nothing was read, and there was no way for me to get back to Adriane. I tried the where am I command, but even that didn't work. I could, however, check the time and go through and change all of the Orca preferences, except that when I set the language to Greek, nothing happened.
I did some research, and apparently, I'm not the only one to encounter this problem. It seems to be an old one as well.
http://osdir.com/ml/orca-list/2009-10/msg00158.html
I then called upon a friend of mine, who has been using Linux for four years, to see what he thought. He downloaded the previous version of Knoppix (7.2) from their site, and experienced the same thing. Furthermore, he never managed to get online.
In conclusion, Adriane is good for an absolute beginner, like a child, a senior, or someone who literally just lost their site and who wishes to get back on the computer as soon as possible. The lack of truly basic things (I can't even call them features) like reading by word, changing the voice, and selecting and copying all, make it practically unusable for anyone else. But I do commend Mr. Knopper for at least considering the needs of the blind community. Maybe, if he got more feedback from us, he would include these features, and Adriane would become a great system for doing basic things. Anything is possible in the world of Linux, and it's for this very reason that I refuse to give up on it. There are many distributions out there, and also a decent number of accessible desktops. I might try Gnome 2, which I hear is menu-driven, despite it being a gui, or I might try 3 on another system. I've herd that Mate is also very accessible and more pleasant to use. I am also not against learning the commandline, though I'm not sure which programs can use it. As for distributions, I just learned that Trisquel is live and starts with speech running, so I may try that next. There is also Sonar, though that is quite new, so probably unstable. Does anyone have any suggestions.
Adriane was a laugh when I tried it. You're right, the documentation is slim to nill. I would try a Sonar GNU/LINUX distro, which you can get at http://sonargnulinux.com You'll find that it is much better than Adriane.
Curiosity got, so I downloaded it before I even read this. I am in the process of erasing a dvdrw so that I can burn it, now that I know how to properly burn bootable disks with the Macbook. *smile*
*sigh* I guess I'll need to buy an external dvd burner. I tried it in the Mac, using the disk utilities method. I erased the disk, since it first said that it couldn't verify it, and that a full erase might fix the problem. But now, it ejects it when I put it in the machine. It does the same with the other dvd. I never had to worry about this, since I hardly ever use cds and have never needed to burn a dvd. But Sonar can also be installed from and onto a cd, and I know Joanie has those, so I'll ask for one tomorrow and try it with my desktop. This is so annoying!
See this is the thing about Linux distros as a hole. I'm going to offend a few people here, but in my experience it's very rare that a distro provides a fully accessible environment that I'd feel comfortable getting an average computer user to use - E.G. fully working desktop, decent selection of drivers & accessible programs that cover the essentials; Trisquel does a pretty good job but I'm assuming you've ruled it out due to people recommending it.
The Adrianne situation sounds like something that is sadly common in the opensource / free (free to use, not "free") software movement - E.G. someone has an idea, they get a proof of concept working & then they get bord. The promissed help never shows up & even if the original developer becomes interested in it again they find that either: they don't understand their old code or: they determin that what the project really needs is a complete rewrite.
I see that you've already dipped your toes into the world of Linux / Linux software documentation / lack of said documentation. Programmers don't write documentation, they program. Writers don't program, they write. As you've noticed, this can mean that normal person friendly documentation for Linux can be quite lacking. I say normal person friendly documentation because most tools do at least have a small readme that will at least explain the syntax, but if you're the sort of person who can look at a copy & paste of someones terminal output to understand how to use a program you're not a normal person & probably aren't put off by the lack of a friendly manual.
Think about your friends who advicate Linux. Are they normal people? If something goes wrong with their operating system would they know how to fix it or how to understand a quickly cobbled together forum post from someone who found a fix that worked for *them*? If the answer to the second question is yes (which I bet it is) then the answer to the first question is no. I'm sure that there are blind people who are using Knoppix with Gnome perfectly well, but they've made it work themselves. You don't have the knolige (yet) to make things work for you, so unless said friends are willing to do an awful lot of spoonfeeding, your Linux adventure will fail.
I would not rule something out just because someone recommended it. I intend on trying both Trisquel and Sonar. Sadly, you're right about documentation. Regardless of what others think of the operating system, there are a lot of sources out there for DOS, so if I really needed to do so, I could go to them and find the answers for many questions. Linux has very little, and while things like autoexec.bat, and to a slightly lesser extent, config.sys, don't scare me off, I have absolutely no clue how things are done in the Linux world. Of course, my friends know far more than I do. One is very well-versed in the commandline, but the other is not. Still, both understand packages and the basic operation of things. I'm still going to experiment. It can't hurt. As for programs, this is what I need, in no particular order. Obviously, the extras are not necessary.
Essentials
1. wordprocessor (txt, rtf/nothing fancy)
2. internet browser (able to handle GMail, Facebook, Youtube, The Zone, and various shopping sites)
3. simple calculator
4. mp3/wav player
5 decent file manager
Extras
1. basic mp3 recorder
2. basic video recorder
3. pdf to rtf converter (Greek and English)
4. ocr software (Greek and English)
I know that Recordpad, which I use on Windows, has a Linux version, and while NCH is known for having extremely accessible programs, I'm not sure how well this one works.
That looks offputting. Let's nullify that effect by stating that distrobutions like Arch, Ubuntu, and a myriad of others do have a wiki page: a collection of documentation written by the community. And, generally, you won't get shoddy documentation, since any good wiki will have admins to maintain it and keep things up to the standards expected of good documentation, which, naturally, vary from wiki to wiki.
I can confirm, with very great joy, that Gnome will speak in Jentoo with no necessary configurations, using the Systemd profile. All one needs to do is choose the Desktop/Gnome/Systemd profile, and emerge gnome gnome-extra-apps gdm and your good.
I've found some Mate resources for installation on Ubuntu 14.04, and getting it accessible to Orca etc.
http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/download
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mate
You need the instructions for Arch even though you're using Ubuntu.
Do make sure that gconf-editor is installed in Ubuntu by doing the following:
sudo apt-get install gconf-editor
The only 2 issues I see with Mate after setting it up for accessibility are:
1. Applications such as Firefox and Thunderbird run as the root user can't be seen at all by Orca.
2. There's no easy to use accessible login manager, though lightdm in Ubuntu 14.04 might do the trick.
http://ubuntu-tricks.com/how-to-build-a-mate-1-8-and-ubuntu-14-04-trusty-tahr-lightweight-system/
Be warned the last link doesn't talk at all about accessibility since if I'm not mistaken Ubuntu Server unlike Debian 7 or 8 doesn't have Speakup with ESpeak start up by default or by hitting s then enter.
Thank you so much. I will keep these available, incase Orca doesn't play nicely with the Unity desktop. I decided to try both Sonar and Ubuntu, and while both spoke, neither did so out of the box. Sonar is supposed to, but I found a thread where someone was having the same problem. The suggestion was to use alt-ctrl-o, but that didn't work for us. Lee had to go to sundries and then to Orca, which, of course, I cannot do. We didn't install Ubuntu on any machine yet, so couldn't use those methods of starting the screen reader, but I did read that hitting s, when on a live cd, works.
Now, since we're discussing desktops, accessibility wise, which is better and which offers more features: Gnome, Unity, or Mate? From a visual perspective, Lee said that the first two looked quite different, and personally, he preferred Gnome.
The s and enter combo only works on the Debian net installer cds, not Ubuntu Server.
As for desktops, if the root applications and login issues can be resolved in it, Mate would be the fastest with submenus like xP or 7 with Classic Shell in XP Mode.
Gnome 3 and Unity take up more Ram, and they're not as user friendly when it comes to having applications visible. Same for adding things to the desktop,. You need Gnome-Tweak-Tool or Unity-Tweak-Tool to get that functionality back. Since you need it to launch Orca's preferences for newer versions of Orca-master.
We just downloaded Ubuntu Desktop, not the server, just to clarify. So we can install Mate, but there will still be problems with applications not showing up? Is it that they're not on the desktop and must be accessed another way, or are they completely invisible to Orca? Can hotkeys be created to get to them?
Since these problems have not been resolved, should I use Gnome for now, and if so, is 2 better than 3?
To The Hated One, I'm not trying to ignore you. I have heard that Gentu is a system for advanced Linux users. If not, then will it work pretty much out of the box, since you said there are no configuration issues? If so, then are some things still hidden? How easy is it to install new programs with Linux, in general? Someone told me it's quite difficult and that things depend on packages. This may be a question for later, but may be related to which version I choose.
Gnome 2 is no longer up to date or included in most distros.
Gnome 3 has similar issues to Unity. The issues with Mate aren't that applications are hidden, but that Orca can't see the main window for lets say Firefox or Thunderbird while Unity can. What's odd is that it can see the main window for many of the LibreOffice applications in Mate.
Since you're using Ubuntu, package installation is ungodly simple; just type sudo apt-get install x in your terminal, enter your password, and boom! Sudo is the privelledge elevation software that Linux uses to get your user temporary root access; think of sudo as the Linux version of runas.
I've never heard of runas. How do I know my password, or do I just create one?
The password to the account you log in as is the one you will supply to sudo.
As an update, I'm running an Arch linux box and it is going extremely well. I've discovered that MATE is a super awesome desktop environment, and am loving it to shreds. I have not reinstalled a new OS since the nineth of June, which is a record for me.
I heard that there is a new version of Sonar and am interested in trying it. The problem that I found with the old one is that Orca didn't start when the system started. Lee has it on a disk, and he could only start Orca by going through the menus, which, of course, is not possible for me. We had the same problem with Ubuntu.
On a different note, has anyone heard of a version of Linux called Zorin? It's supposed to look very much like Windows XP, but I'm not sure how or if that would work with Orca. Would it beasier for me to use or is it basically just a visual aid for those making the transition to Linux?
Most likely, I will be burning an iso of Linux to a cd or dvd and using that. But I keep hearing about installing and/or at least using it on a usb drive. I've seen and tried various programs for diong this, but almost all of them were inaccessible, and none had Sonar as an option. I want to see if my computer can boot from usb, but I can only do that if I have one that's bootable and that has osmething on it.
I have heard of Zorin. The best bet would be to just use it and see what happens. As for getting a CD on to a USB stick, that's a fairly simple task. All you need, really, is a program called 7ZIP and a DOS program called diskpart. The latter program is on your computer already, 7ZIP you'll need to get. Once you've installed 7ZIP, get an ISO, launch 7ZIP, navigate to the location of the ISO file, right click on it, and extract it. As for diskpart, open up a DOS command prompt and type diskpart. Now, type list disk, to discover which one is your thumb drive. Then select disk x, where x is the thumb drive. Then list part, to see the partition. Now select part x, where x is the partition of your ISO, and type active or set active (I haven't done this in a while), and type exit. Voila.